This part of dating etiquette is a huge dilemma for guys too. Some gals find it insulting to be paid for, some gals expect it as a matter of course. It can ruin the meal for both of you.
On first dates, the assumption has always been that the guy pays for the meal, only reluctantly going dutch if the gal is not terribly interested in him. That has now changed, as some gals can get pretty stroppy at the idea of being paid for. It is a difficult subject to bring up, hence the clumsiness of some of your recent first dates!
The normal routine is for you to reach for your purse when the check arrives without saying anything. This gives him the opportunity to refuse. If he refuses, accept it gracefully with a smile.
It is getting rather difficult to be a traditional man!
Out Thursday, so a double answer today.
I hate sitting through a meal without the 'who pays' question answered.
I get all anxious.
It's horrible!
Either way you can come across as rude. I'll feel 'in debt' if he pays so I normally just insult a gentleman's sensibilities and insist that the bill is split.
It's strange because I don't feel this way with male friends because I know it comes out in the wash and I'll shout them the next time.
The other day I went out to dinner by myself, and it was soo relaxing to just sit there and not have to be worrying about 'rules' and their underlying meanings.
"can get pretty stroppy"? Well, that's a poor turn of phrase! I know you're not uneducated about women's rights and liberation, so the idea of being paid for just because you're a woman is hardly something that some women would refer to as "getting stroppy" about.
I'm sure most people in this day and age don't particularly like to be paid for, bought and kept. I always go by the rule of if you're the one that's invited the other person on the date, it's up to you to pay. That's just politeness. Then, if they insist on going dutch, then that's what you do.
I always used to make this quite clear at the start of the meal so that it's not a worry later. :) Now, with my partner, we tend to have a swapsies kind of "you get this one, and I'll get the next one" approach to things.
PS It's getting difficult to be a "traditional man" because this sort of gender-dictated behaviour is not the way it should be. If you want to be the kind of PERSON who pays or goes dutch, then make that clear. And if you want to be the kind of PERSON who has things paid for them, make that clear too. Then everybody will know where they stand, but it absolutely shouldn't be based on what bits and pieces you happened to be born with. That's just absurd.
True. But it shows the guy's bafflement and nerves rather well.
Yeah, because everyone magically has discussions about every possible topic on their first few dates and clarifies all possible issues beforehand. Wait. . what was the point of these dates? Why don't people just make it clear what kind of people they are and what kind of people they want up front and only start relationships with those and skip the whole dating part?
You're right. It doesn't happen "magically". Literally no-one suggested that it did. But if it's something YOU'RE nervous about, then (SHOCK HORROR!!) YOU'RE going to have to bring it up if YOU want it resolved. How else will it get fixed?
Dating is about getting to know someone, yes, but if this is going to cast a shadow over the whole date, then it makes sense to bring it up. It's just a short conversation, it doesn't have to be handled deadly seriously, and it could save a lot of hassle.
Isn't it obvious to sort something if it bothers you? *rolls eyes* Honesty = win.
I'm not about talking about ALL POSSIBLE ISSUES before you get to know someone (no-one mentioned that either) but if you're going on a date where there's money involved, and you're a person who isn't comfortable paying for yourself if you've been asked out, then that's something that needs to be sorted at the start of the date. And the sentence of "Why don't people just make it clear what kind of people they are and what kind of people they want up front and only start relationships with those and skip the whole dating part?" makes sense to me, except for skipping the dating bit. Why would you stop going on dates once you're in a relationship with someone? Finding people you want to be with, people who you know you'd be compatible with because you're already friends, or because you've, oh I don't know, actually talked to them beforehand, then yeah. That makes much more sense to me.
I think the person that initiated the date should pay. If there is not going to be a next time, then you should go Dutch. If there is going to be a next time, it's your choice. I personally don't ever like going Dutch preferring to take turns paying.
The guys I know insist on paying for their gals and female friends. They are glad to be able to do it and will not have it any other way. And the women let them even if we make more than they do sometimes. In turn we plan outings, parties and take care of details. It works. Everyone is happy... I would never let someone I did not like pay my way - then I would insist on paying.
I know this can be a touchy subject, but I don't think MM was out of line to mention that some women "can get pretty stroppy" when their date/male friends expect to pay for the entire meal.
Womens reasons for said "stroppiness" (word?) may vary and the reasons for men offering/expecting to pay also vary, but in my experience, it's out of what used to be called chivalry. It's gentlemanly to pay for the lady, whether you expect them to or not.
I guess there are some guys out there who look at it as a 'bought and paid for' situation, but honestly, if they do see it that way, who's gonna make you follow through on 'paying up'? If they insist, you simply kick 'em in the balls and walk away.
No harm, no foul. :)
Instead of "it's gentlemanly to pay for the lady", I prefer to see it as "it's polite to pay for your date, whichever one of you asked the other".
Just because you happen to be a women doesn't mean you should be able to get out of having good manners. I'm not saying men shouldn't offer to pay for women, it's very polite to do so, but that's only because I think people should offer to pay for their dates, regardless of their sex or gender.
This is the reason I try to keep the first few dates at the coffee shop. Show up a little early, buy your own coffee and then you can focus on getting to know the other person without the panic when the check comes. When (if) we do make it to a dinner date, I carry enough cash to cover my bill if necessary and if the guy wants to pay I insist on paying for the tip.
Next time, do the whole "I'm -reaching-for-my-purse" just in case, but if he does pay for dinner offer to pay for coffee afterward or some treat. Last time, the guy paid the food but I got us a round of drinks. It keeps the awkwardness at bay because it shows you can take care of yourself but still be considerate.
personally for me, any man that gets offended on a first date because you aren't reaching for your wallet is one to avoid a second date with, especially if he did the asking. But I'm a little old school that way. To me, if someone is going to get offended by something like that so early on, it's a bit of a red flag because it will definitely set a tone for things to come. What else will he get offended by if you don't measure up? Is he always going to be expecting you to reach for the wallet? If a man or friend or whoever chooses to be offended by stuff like that, know it's their stuff, not your stuff, and try and let it go, at least that's how I roll with things like that. I once had a guy stand me up because he at first said he had paid rent that week and didn't have money for our first date, so I offered to cover, and he agreed, and then he stood me up. So I did suspect I offended him, but didn't take it personally because I sort of thought, if he is like this NOW, how will this issue translate down the road, and kind of cut my losses.
the time to have a good natured intelligent discussion on traditional gender roles is not when the check comes. but your question is, how to avoid this? MM's advice is good, reach for the purse without saying a word. Any man worth his salt will see this as the international gesture for the offer to pay, and a true gentleman will stop you before your hand touches the purse. This is not to say I expect every man to pay every time, and nor should you or any woman in this day and age. If he covered the first, I would offer the invite for the second date and cover the details, relationships are about give and take. But if he invited me to a nice restaurant and then waited until the check came to express his expectation that I was covering my own meal, he definitely would NOT get a second date with me. With the guy I'm dating now, he is definitely old school as well and has a bit more money than me, and I think he would be offended if I offered to pay for something. But how I have handled it from day one is, "thanks for the invite, next time it's my treat!" that may be an option for you if this is happening repeatedly. That way if he had a problem with it he could say so right then, "Oh, I thought we would split the cost, is that okay?, or, don't worry, I've got it, just tell me where to meet you...etc" Unfortunately today the economy kind of sucks and this is a touchier subject than it has been in the past, but that doesn't mean common manners need to go out the window. Leaving it until the last minute like that is just plain rude, and not fair to you in my opinion.
Have to say I don't get "stroppy" but i DO get weirdly and unexpectedly offended by being asked to split the bill....
Had this discussion with my own boyfriend. Recently he has been asking to split the bill in restaurants because he can expense his meals as part of his work package as we've just relocated. Normally he pays or I pay but we have never asked to split it (as in he will pay half on his card and then I pay half on mine.) Its been two weeks of lunches and dinners at restaurants and you wouldn't believe the amount of raised eye brows and pity looks i get from the waiting staff. I feel like they're thinking "oh sweetie you weren't even worth that fettuccine carbonara you just gulped down" or "wow that must have been an awful date"..or "yea mate I probably wouldn't pay for her either". I would cringe every time they came around with the card machine and so I had to tell my bf to pay both sides or i would give him the money before hand, so that it didn't look like I was actually paying half of the meal. Yes, I know its crazy and I never thought I would be uneasy by that sort of thing but if you ever find yourself in that situation constantly - then you will know what i'm talking about.
I'm a huge feminist and don't go for gender roles- I'm studying to be an engineer and know how to fly a plane. ...Yet I can't help feeling like the guy's cheap if he doesn't pay for me on the first date (provided he asked me, which has always been the case). It's psychological, I believe, because my dad was the biggest pennypincher and money was always on the forefront for him. I don't want a guy like that. I've tried to convince myself to change how I feel, but at the end I've accepted it. Will I dump him for not paying for me? Of course not, but it'll inevitably change my feelings about him. I definitely think a guy who insists on paying on the first date is a huge turn on. After that, I *myself* will insist on paying as equally as possible.
I was the original asker - Thank you, Mystery Man!! I really appreciate your thoughts on the subject, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who has encountered this issue. I really understand now that this is a difficult situation because there are so many differing opinions on the subject. The truth is, I don't mind paying half, taking turns paying, or being treated to a meal. (I'll admit my mother told raised me to believe that if you let a man pay for your dinner he will expect sex afterward - but I have never found that to be true, at least they never said so explicitly.)
What really bugged me is what Chrissie1101 put so eloquently: "he invited me to a nice restaurant and then waited until the check came to express his expectation that I was covering my own meal..." Also, the weasly way they approached it "Hey, I'd love to take you out and have lots of fun with you! Now you owe me money or you can't call yourself a liberated woman any more." Also, there was a worse attitude: here's what I didn't have room to write in the original question:
I am always prepared to pay my own way, but I always order as though he is paying - i.e. considerately. That means that if he asks me where I want to eat, I give two options - one is always moderate, and one is always inexpensive - like, "There's a really nice pasta restaurant down the street, but there's also that great taco bar on the corner - I could eat at either, which would you prefer?" If I'm choosing, I would never demand to go to a really expensive restaurant on a first date. When we order, I choose a reasonable entree that is close in price to what he is ordering. I'm not obsessive about it, and I get what I want to eat, but I don't run up the bill, either. I am aware that if he is treating, I don't want to take advantage. I noticed that with the guys who insisted on paying, we had a reasonable and enjoyable meal at a reasonably priced restaurant. For example, if we did get dessert, we ordered one and split it, and it was fun! They always refused when I offered to pay, so I finally stopped offering. And I always made a point of saying thank you for taking me out to dinner.
Then I hit this string of guys who would insist on taking me to an expensive restaurant, insist on ordering a bottle of wine (I'd have a glass, they'd have the rest), they'd choose two appetizers, they'd order the most expensive item on the menu (yes, literally), and then they'd want to order a dessert for each of us. Then when they saw the bill, their eyes would get kinda big and they'd suddenly say, "So how do you feel about traditional gender roles in like relationships and stuff?" I really didn't like being unexpectedly asked to go dutch when, if I had understood I was responsible for mine, I would have insisted on more modest choices.
I like the idea of reaching for my purse, but with these guys who ran up the bill, honestly I think they would have said, "Oh, I didn't realize you were getting this - thanks! Wait - lemme get another drink for the road..." In the future, I'll play it by ear and try MM's purse suggestion and see how it goes.
I also really like the suggestion of saying BEFORE the date, "Thanks for inviting me! Next time, it will be my treat, OK?" It makes my position clear and gives an opportunity for him to clarify. I would kind of like to see how they handle this kind of communication before hand. If they absolutely insist on paying, I have no problem accepting graciously and with a smile. After these experiences, I think MM described it perfectly - it really does ruin my meal not knowing in advance. I'd rather have the awkwardness out of the way before the meal starts, rather than dread it while I'm eating. But that's just me. I'll try it at least once and see how it works.
I love this site, you're awesome Mystery Man! And to all the people who posted, thanks for your great suggestions.
Sounds like you were either being sh*t-tested or going out with assh*les. For example, with my ex, I could see doing that on one of our first few dates just to see what her reaction would be - even though I would pay for it anyway. Perhaps you've just had a string of dates with guys with very similar senses of humor. . .or guys who've read the same book.
Though you'd think after the 2nd time, you'd evolve a pre-check thing of when you walked into the restaurant announcing that you'd just pay for your stuff since you don't plan on having too much and putting the ball firmly in your date's court to decide whether his idea on gender roles involves him saying don't worry, he'll pay for both your meals regardless.
That's just plain rude running up a bill expecting you to pay half - no way! In that case you hand him money letting him know you are covering (just) your part and LEAVE. He will remember you are no pushover... That's so outrageous if he was the one to ask you out! No worries about a second date. Am thinking you should look him in the eye and tell him you are incredulous he expects women he asks out to pay - definitely not impressive. How would he know if someone doesn't speak up. You want to be fair, not taken advantage of!
Ooh. I've never really had a problem with this sort of thing. Most of the guys I've dated have been willing to pay, although I usually choose inexpensive places to begin with. Even platonic male friends usually pay for my half when we go out somewhere, unless it's an expensive concert or I've suggested the outing.
Recently, though, I went out on a first date with a classmate, who I'm sure can't make much, so while he paid for the bowling, I bought us a round, and I think it worked out very well that way.
I think dating is difficult today because there really aren't clear cut rules anymore like there once were (based on economic times, and how the sexes were perceived). Insofar as money, it can really screw things up when it is mis-matched in two people, and ultimately leading to such sticky situations.
I personally, am old-school in that I like a gentleman who is comfortable with paying, although I will always bring money on a date and reach for my purse when the check arrives. Also, I generally suggest a local place that is reasonably priced and always meet at the bar. I don't suggest dinner unless they do, and I more or less let things progress naturally. Many of the men I've dated are casual like me, so they view (much like I do) that picking up the tab is a bit like the "cost of doing business". If the company was good and a nice time was had, it's worth it (and I go out of my way to be nice, even if the chemistry isn't there and we won't go on a second date).
I think where the issues come up, is if it becomes a major topic or irritation early on. For instance, a few weeks ago, I went out with someone. We met at a local place, at the bar. He was nice, we got along. Within the first hour, he started talking about how "consumeristic" and shallow our society was, how everything was about money. Then he made an interesting comment and said that with his online dating experience, he said he skipped all women who said they wanted men who were financially stable. I offered up that yes, while some may be looking for sugar daddies, I tend to think it's more professional women who want to be with someone who is comfortable in their career and is stable in that they pay their bills, etc. He got VERY mad at me for this comment, and said I was wrong. Then, he suggested that I really didn't understand because I'm a part of that culture too (where he got that from, no clue!) I take pride in being at my current company 12 years, and 25 years in my industry. I just put myself through college, and my hard work has given me the comfort of security in my life (i.e. where I live, car, etc.) Well, at the end of the date, when the check came, he actually stopped and look at me with the bill in his hand. I grabbed my purse and said "how much do I owe you?" and he grimaced and said "no..I'll get it".
Now, here's where it gets interested. He had told me had a roommate (a woman). I figured ok, no biggie (six years living together). Well, I later found out that she was his ex-girlfriend, and he did not have the money to move out despite her constantly throwing in his face how it was "her house" (he pays a very small amount in rent). I actually picked up the check for two subsequent dates to try and be nice and "balance things out", but after finding out she was the ex, I realized that he was probably a mooch, which is why money was such a big thing to him. That's when I knew that we would not work because he was not comfortable with his monetary situation, and thus, would not be able to be a good partner until he sorted those things out.
I think if two people aren't on te same wavelength, be it about money, values, etc. doesn't matter..it just won't work. If it's comfortable, then it generally goes smoothly (my two cents)