I too strongly believe in feminism and women's equality, but for the love of God, get a hobby.
OK, that was a little blunt, so let me make the point a little more gently. You're right, they're not just women's issues. They do affect men as well. And, if the guys want to discuss them, by all means, discuss them.
But, and I speak as somebody who grew up around people who wanted to start "honest dialogue" about all sorts of issues, then went to college with them, and am currently in graduate school with them, there are lots of times where people of both genders just do not want to talk about politics, of any sort, at all, especially not with a person who actually uses the term "honest dialogue". It's tiresome, and often it means you will be trying to explain how normal people think to a self-righteous person with no discernible sense of humor.
It goes double for gender politics. Most guys have had terrible experiences with gender politics, especially in college. It's not that most guys disagree that women should be paid fairly or that a woman has a right to her body, they just don't want to hear about how it's all their fault because they have a penis, or be condescended to by people who have no idea what they're talking about.
You probably are being preachy, or at least losing track of the fact that just because it seems profoundly important and clear for you doesn't mean it's the same way for the guys you're talking to. And, no, that doesn't mean you should explain it. It means you need to accept that not everybody wants to talk about gender issues all the time.
Talk about something else, and let them bring up the gender politics. The best honest dialogue comes from people who actually want to talk.
Share it with women...., leave the guys outta it.
I've met a lot of feminists who are men. Or Male Allys as we call them. They do exist.
I have learned through time and experience to take the stance that people live in their own reality. If they are open to hearing about the stuff I know, I'll share it. If they are not, I will keep it to myself. The stance "I'm right and damnit you should know it too!" keeps discussions stagnant or negative. I will not go into those discussions with the idea that I'm right, they are wrong and I must convince them of this. If they ask I will share. That's it.
Totally agree with Dan. Not sure your age but being a bit older my friends and I cringe at the word "dialog"and find it offensive... all it means is get ready to bend over as your own personal beliefs are about to be shoved up your ars, no matter the topic. Best to find a group of friends or group on-line that share your passions - just like Dan mentioned, a hobby that you can share with others who share the same passion. If you decide that one belief so important to you that you have to discuss it regularly, then so be it, but be prepared for the consequences. Good luck!
Ok, let's be honest. As a woman, feminism even drives me insane. When women claim to be terribly oppressed and run around demanding equal rights, it really makes me wonder if they've got their eyes closed. I know plenty of women who are in careers that back in my grandparents prime would be called "male careers". These women are engineers, lawyers, policewomen, firefighters, doctors, etc. They pursued what they wished to pursue with barely a thought to gender inequality.
As a woman I can not think of any significant instance in which I felt I did not have the same rights as a man would. I don't see gender barriers, I pursue what I want to pursue. It is truly up to each individual, male OR female to decide what they want and go after it.
If a woman does come across difficulty, then sure, she needs to stand up for herself. I don't see how it would even be appropriate to make feminist issues regular conversation; it could only appear preachy just as someone who brings up politics without reason would.
Rather than being hung up on being treated as an equal, go live your life. When you stop focusing on it I'm sure you'll realize it's a non-issue.
I suppose the wage gap is just a myth then?
When was the last time you felt safe walking home alone at night? Because I'm pretty sure I'd like to have that right.
@MindBindy I feel the same way girl, ofcourse there are still issues, like the wage gap, but I really think people/women are... Making a bigger deal out of it than nescessary (Sorry about the spelling).
@Nomi-209 I live in a cultural hodgepodge of caucasian, african, easteuropean and middle eastern paople. We have the Russuan mafia and two gangs operating out of my neighbourhood, and hot damn! I have never felt safer walking home at night. Because there is nothing for ME to be afraid of. We have no rapes and a minimum of assaults and robbery. Whenever there is conflict, it involves 'outsiders' or the police.
So maybe you should get out of that victim mentality of yours and take a look at the real world for a change.
Actually, victim mentality really bothers me too, and you're right to feel safe. I certainly do, and we all should. The problem is that, when I tell someone that I feel safe, they feel the need to remind me of all the rapist bogeymen waiting in the shadows to attack.
Understand, Bogeymen are exactly what they are- the threat isn't really real, just a construct to keep women afraid. Yes, there are bad people out there, but they are formed from both genders, and you're not more likely to be hurt just because you're a woman.
What I have a problem with is the constant attempt to rob me of my right to feel safe walking alone at night. The news, public transit, well-meaning boys who insist on walking me home for "protection"- it's like it's all trying to remind me that the streets don't belong to me, and I have no right to claim them. I am a fallen woman for daring to feel safe, and I will be punished.
And that's just bullshit.
I'm the original questioner... and wow, this answer depresses me.
I realize I maybe came off a little pretentious/self-righteous, but it's hard to summarize this problem in 370 characters.
Look, I tried to make a point that I don't bash on men. And I DEFINITELY don't talk about this with EVERYONE ALL THE TIME. I know, sometimes people don't want to hear about gender politics and in those instances I will keep quiet.
But, when I've been dating a guy for a few months and we see stuff about Planned Parenthood in news, you better believe it's something I want to be able to talk about. I wasn't talking about going off on a huge rant on the first date... I am talking about men in my life that I care a lot about and want to be able to share my passions and beliefs with.
I am already aware that my problem is that I come across as preachy so this answer telling me that I am preachy and should keep my thoughts to myself was kind of hurtful.
I minored in Gender studies, so I'm not just talking about my ass and I really really do to be good-natured, good humored and down to earth about it. I was looking for advice on how to bring up this topic in a way that is receptive to guys, instead this just reinforced that I should keep my thoughts to myself :(
*out of my ass.... although sometimes I am just talking about my ass
When I said "Did that make sense?" I didn't mean your question, I was asking if the sentence I had just written made sense to you. Sorry, I just realized how that could be misunderstood.
I can see how you would be disappointed in RP's answer, but I think the most important thing to remember is that you asked a man for a man's opinion on a topic that most men would rather not deal with. Did that make sense? Even though you try to be good-natured and humorous about it, "women's issues" are not something that most men really want to discuss. I don't think he was telling you to shut up and deal, like some others commented here, but rather that feminism is not necessarily a topic that should be discussed at every availability. I'm a woman and sometimes I get sick of hearing about it all. It doesn't make me any less aware or sympathetic, I'd just rather not let those things be the focus of my interactions with others. As for you trying to make it more "male friendly", I say try to keep it light. Like others commented, let the topic come around without you being the one to bring it up, and then once the convo is underway try not to get too intense with it. That way you don't come across as being preachy, but you can still put your two cents in. Plus, this way the discussion can be more easily diverted to friendlier topics if need be. Just a suggestion... good luck!
Btw, when I said "Did that make sense" I was referring to my preceding statement, not your question to RP. Sorry, I just realized how that could be misunderstood.
For a different perspective on your question, check out my response:
http://www.guyspeak.com/answers/im-a-feminist-passionate-about-gender-issues-guys-have-told-me-that-i-lectureget-preachy-when-i-try-3/
*out of my ass..... although sometimes I do just talk about my ass...
I'm so disappointed to read that a woman who defines herself as a feminist actively trying to avoid 'preaching' to men, should be told to shut up about it. This is a destructive answer which reinforces stereotypes of feminists. What if the question asker was one of the suffragettes of the late 19th/early 20th century- would Dan's answer have been appropriate then? We need to talk about feminism in open, friendly conversations so that people (both men and women) change their expectations of the stereotypical feminist. This applies to other social inequalities - if we keep quiet nothing will change. Feminism is not just a political stance or hobby.
Not to shut up about it, but to respect that people need to talk about it on their own time and on their own terms. That simple.
Extreme, preachy feminists get on my nerves too, but this answer was disappointing on so many levels--here are two.
1. You didn't answer it. She asked how she could share her passion and you basically told her not to. "Talk about something else and let them bring up the gender politics." Seriously? What kind of weak, passive advice is that? If she had a passion about almost anything else you would tell her to embrace it and not let people change her.
2. You made unfair assumptions. "They don't want to hear about how it's all their fault because they have a penis or be condescended to by people who have no idea what they're talking about." She specifically said in the question that she doesn't bash hetero men--take her word for it and try to help based on the information given. I guess she didn't claim to be an expert, but I don't know how you turned that into her having no idea what she was talking about.
To the asker--Try to bring up a discussion/debate on any controversial topic, not just gender, with a guy and see what happens. In my experience, unless they're the unusual guy up for a good debate, they'll tend to resort to "Quit attacking me. I don't want to fight about this." And no amount of "I'm not fighting. I just want to know your opinion. It's interesting to explore topics like this." will fix the situation.
It's frustrating, but what can you do? If he's a reasonable guy he'll see that your passions are part of you and he should take some amount of interest in them as you should his. This also means you probably won't get to talk about this as often as you'd like, but it should be something to compromise on. If you can't have satisfying conversations with you guy, maybe find a new one who, if not sharing your gender passion specifically, is at least passionate about some cause and would get you better.
The most important part of communicating is listening.
It sounds like you are using other people as a soundboard for your own views. I don't care what the issue is, and it doesn't matter if I agree or not- I absolutely hate it when someone talks AT me about whatever they're convinced is true.
An "honest dialogue" comes from people discussing topics of mutual interest that naturally come up between them, and listening to and learning from what the other has to say. When it works, they both walk away with new questions and insights that they didn't have when they started.
An "honest dialogue" is NOT dumping your mentally-rehearsed monologue on them. It does not start with "I have decided that this is what we're talking about, and I will talk and you will listen and agree". Even if you think this is an exaggerration, the point is that a proper dialogue cannot happen when one person enters into it with a pre-determined agenda.
A conversation = people talking together, and, more importantly, listening to each other.
A conversation=/= listening to yourself talk on someone else's time.
Hmm. Actually, that sounds pretty harsh, now that I'm reading it over. Sorry.
I don't define myself as a "feminist", but I believe that I'm a person and that "feminism" is basically the belief that women are people, so I guess I am.
What happens with me is that, when something annoys me or I'm mad about something that's happened or is happening to me, I confide in my guy (or my friends) about what I'm going through. Sometimes, it's that some guy treated me like a sex object when he had no right, or it's the fact that the media is so determined to make sure that I never feel safe walking home alone, or the fact that some tv show glorifies rape while ostensibly condemning it, or the lack of respect I receive in certain situations while others get undue props. All this stuff happens because I'm a woman, but I'm not talking about "women's issues," I'm just talking about life.
Because he cares about me, my guy listens, just like I'm there for him if he's experiencing some kind of injustice (which is rarer, but it happens). We have each other's ear, because we are open with each other. Same goes for friends- real friends, of any gender, are willing to listen to you when you're opening up to them (as opposed to lecturing them).
So my advice is, don't try to start conversations by deciding that the person you're talking to is going to learn about gender issues whether they like it or not. Just be open, and honest- who knows? They might have some insights you haven't even thought of.
Coming to Daves defense here.
I can see everyone's points, from a female perspective (I am a man but have a fiance to explain these things to me, haha) I can definitely see why his answer may have been disappointing/upsetting. But this is an advice website based on the perceptions of men, not what you'd prefer our perceptions to be.
I think Dave was just saying that many men feel preached to when discussing womens rights, especially when the women has her arguments ready. You also say you minored in Gender Studies, so that means you know a whole lot of examples and can reference material while your man will sit there and probably end up saying something thick skulled like "Well it's way better now than it was forty years ago." and then you get mad at a mans apparent 'lack of care' towards what you feel strongly about.
Gender politics is like telling a man that you think you look amazing now that you've lost ten pounds, and then you ask him for his opinion. He has no idea where to go with it except to say "Oh baby you've always been gorgeous.". I know that sounds very shallow and misogynistic as an example but I am going for laughs here. Please no crucifixion.
I like what Dave said. As a man myself I've had to take a million courses on gender equality and ethics etc as a police officer, and many men in all walks of life have had to take these courses or be fed this information over and over again.
The only thing I would change is that you can still bring it up, but bring it up as something going on in your life, not some deep out of the blue conversation. If a coworker made a pass at you then laughed about it saying he was messing with you, go talk to your boyfriend about that.
It's a good roundabout way of addressing the issue without making a man immediately shut down because he feels he will be preached at.
I run into this problem a lot as a lot of my friends are guys. However, I do not bring it up unless someone says something that is offensive. I try to defend the female point of view and that is when I get the eye-rolling. I'm sure a lot of their annoyance comes from me disagreeing with what they are saying, but I am tired of being labeled the preachy one when it was them saying something offensive. Now I hear a lot of "Oh, it's a good thing you weren't there, you would be so mad if you heard so-and-so say this..." How to tread this line? Do I just stay silent? That doesn't sit well with me, but neither does constantly having to object to the things being said. It's a tough spot to be in.
In all honesty I think it is them thinking "Why is her opinion worth more than mine?". Which is not what you are saying, I get that, but maybe they don't.
Also, many groups of friends like to make fun of one another, or make jokes at each others expense. I've had the same friends since I was eleven and we give each other so much shit it's amazing. Some of them are even girls haha, and ladies you can give as good as you get. Now, if that kind of behaviour bothers you just say that it does and ask them to please hold back a bit. They don't want to hear about how they are uncaring towards the female population or are part of the problem because, honestly, they are most likely just razzing.
Think about it from the male side. I have many female friends who say things like "All men are just pigs." and many other things along those lines. Does anyone think twice about those comments? Nope, because they are just a part of normal social encounters. And I have tried to argue that the woman is being sexist, note to all men, never ever try to do that. It never goes well. But if a man says something like "Why do women all have to be so needy?" they can sometimes get torn a new one by women (and some men) around them. It's like when we are kids and see the kid next door who can watch Family Guy but we can't even watch The Simpsons, we ask mom and dad why and they say "because the rules are not the same in their house.". To discuss equality and then have such blatant social inequality is a contradiction that many men are just tired of dealing with and talking about.
Oh, and by social inequality I literally mean social, as in conversation and interaction. I am not saying that the pay scales are where they should be. Though I am from Canada and it's pretty much equal these days over here. But I understand that other countries are still having serious issues with gender equality.
So, just let them know your boundaries. I think if they were actually sexist pigs you probably wouldn't be friends with them.
Thanks for a great response. I do agree with you that there is a double standard in which disagreeing with sexist comments towards men is unfairly bashed. And I think you are right that these guys just don't know that I draw the line where I do and they are just razzing each other, not realizing that they are hurting my feelings. I guess the problems emerge we get to that line time and time again and it is just exhausting for both parties to have to navigate it.
Well someone needs to make a change then. If this is becoming an issue in the friendships then a conversation has to occur where one party or the other changes their behaviour. So, either you accept that they are just razzing and join in, or let them know that you just can't have them saying certain things.
Maybe it is more the wording than the message that bothers you. Or perhaps a generalization that you dislike, but try to put them in your shoes. Empathy is a powerful thing. I would hope that your friends are not stubborn enough to ignore you if you try to sort this out with them.
This is a common issue with women who spend a lot of time with mainly guy friends. You become 'one of the gang' so their behaviour can change to that level. Letting them know that you are still one of the gang but still have to be treated with respect can go a long way. We strive for equality but men and women are different groups of people generally, different strengths and weaknesses. This is something to be understood and embraced.
Forgetting that your passion is gender issues, I don't think you can always reasonably expect someone you're interested in to share that passion or to do much more than politely entertain it... until they want to die. How much of a "dialogue" would you want to sit through about, say, hunting? Poker? Dungeons & Dragons? Air hockey? Victorian architecture? The mating habits of insects?
I apologize if this point has been made already. I fully admit that I want to make sure I get my point across without having to hear what the others have had to say. Ya dig?
You don't have to keep your thoughts to yourself, but know your audience. You don't go on about how fruitful your hunting trip was and expect your vegan friends to listen very long. You don't take your boyfriend that's allergic to curry to a Thai restaurant. Pick another friend to go with you!
You can't make someone interested in your passion just because it's your passion.
I'm disappointed. This reply smacks of "Quiet, woman! You don't know what you're talking about."
I'll say what I said above. The point of this site is to gain the male perspective on certain topics and issues. This does not mean you'll like it or agree with it as there are many fundamental questions that men and women answer differently.
On that note, I don't think what he is saying is "Quiet, woman!" as she obviously knows what she is talking about. The whole response is based on the fact that she is knowledgeable and passionate about gender equality and that will almost always push men away from wanting an 'honest dialogue' about this issue. Mainly because an 'honest dialogue' about gender equality is almost always a prepared rant where men are told that their grandfathers and great grandfathers were misogynistic pricks. Some women even blame modern day men.
Would you want to sit through a prepared discussion about how your race/gender/religion is responsible for all these bad things? Especially when the person ranting is someone you care about? I am all for a true honest discussion, but as a man I have never been able to actually have one about gender equality. This is mainly due to the fact that the women who don't really care about it, really don't want to talk about it, and the women who do care about it won't have their opinions questioned.
So, if you are a women who can actually openly and freely discuss gender issues with a man, and can accept that a modern day man has different perceptions than you do about it, and not get upset or self righteous, then good on you and please try to have these discussions with men. No-one should HAVE to listen to anything they don't want to, regardless of the topic or political weight. And it does not make a man sexist or a pig if he doesn't want to talk about it.
I'm dating a feminist (guy) now. I can never date a non-feminist again. I've never been in a relationship with so much mutual respect.
I have to say that for the past few of hours i have been hooked by the impressive articles on this website. Keep up the good work.
I agree