I wish I could tell you that it was complete and total BS but I actually believe it to be true. While all men don't have the wherewithall or heart to be dbags to women in the kind of way that draws them in, I think most empirical data shows that women are drawn to men that pretend they don't exist or don't pay them the attention that they want.
It all comes down to ego.
Women are taught from an early age how special they are. Women are also taught, or learn, that men chase women are are all pretty much dogs who will do anything for sex. So, many women attach their self-worth to their ability to attract men. And assume that they can. The female ego is a many splendid thing. Which explains the dbag thing. When a womah expresses interest towards a man, and he shuns it, most women can't process this. It doesn't make any sense. "I choose him, and he doesn't want me? What does he think I'm not good enough??"
Women suck at unrequited love. Women also need to understand "why?" And through this need for understanding her desires for said man who pretended she didn't exist grew. Hell, I can't tell you how many arguments I've had with women just because I told them that I didn't need them. All of a sudden I'm a bad guy...but they also didn't go anywhere.
Women hate it when men they are interested in, aren't interested in them, and either kick their feminine wiles into tenth gear or berate the man as being...something. This is why men think that jerks get all the women, because largely they do. Or at least can.
This isn't to say that nice guys can't get women because obviously they do. They just don't get women in the same scores as the jerks who pretend they'd rather paint sandpaper than be bothered by some trollop woman who isn't any different than some other woman he can bone any other day of the week.
Jerks don't make women feel special. And women need to feel special.
It's really just math.
I'm sorry, but this attitude is exactly the problem this woman was trying to address. There *are* women who behave this way; women who chase jerks because they can't stand the idea of not being wanted, then push away the nice guys who do want them because they're "too clingy." But they are the kind of woman you don't want to date anyway. The idea that all women do this is sexist and betrays some prejudices on your part.
I know many women, myself included, who are in close, loving, healthy relationships with men who take care of them and love them, men who made their genuine feelings and intentions clear from the get-go. You don't have to be a jerk to get a woman.
We're not all just sad, cruel attention-whores, thanks.
"This isn't to say that nice guys can't get women because obviously they do"
He never said ALL men or ALL women do this.
Yes he did. Saying things like "Women suck at unrequited love.", unless you clarify it with a "Most" or an "In my experience/opinion", then it implies it for all women.
I feel that Panama is easily the most sexist of all the guys here. MM and Nick and Cary are super supportive and understanding, and PJ just makes a ton of insulting blanket statements about women, as if he can prescribe psychology across every female mind on earth. It's really belittling and entirely unwelcome on a site designed to answer women's questions with compassion and understanding.
I didn't know this site was "designed to answer women's questions with compassion and understanding". I thought it was suppose to be funny, make you laugh and maybe give you a little insight to the male mind.
If you're looking for psychology, maybe you should see a therapist.
The most sexist of all guys here? cool. ill be that. i answer the questions based on what i believe to be truth and add some color to it. forgive me for doing my job.
You're totally right, Tory, thanks for understanding my point of view! I'm the asker, and it was nice to see that my point was still clear somehow. And yes, that was a big message I took away from the response is that the apparently simple "math" was all about or egos.
It was kind of disheartening to read, to be honest, but at the same time I know that it's impossible that ALL men feel this way since I know too many that don't.
I disagree. Lots of women do date dbags, but those are actually the submissive type. Lots of women date nice guys, but hate tramping all over them. So most stay single. SOme guys are in the middle of course, neither jerks or super nice, and those are usually the guys who are happily married.
I've actually been thinking a bit about this lately. The thing is, I think guys look at this as a "nice guy"/jerk dichotomy to protect their egos but that's not really it at all. It's really a less masculine, effeminate vs. manly, dominant guys. Ladie typically tend to prefer the alpha male, or at least stereotyically. But, the alpha male doesnt have to be a jerk, its just that sometimes they are. Its why guy always complain about women not liking them cause they're too "nice". Its not niceness that's the problem with them though, its that the "niceness" comes at the expense of their masculinity. However, but painting it as a nice vs. jerk picture, a guy can make it look like its the female who's not attracted to him thats the problem. Cause, who couldnt like niceness, right? But really, it's the guy's lack of assertiveness which is the root of his lack of sex appeal. As the psych major that I am, the words "illusory correlation" and "projection" come to mind. Of course its tempting to phrase one's personality into an appealing sounding way ("I'm a nice guy") so that people who aren't attracted are the problem, but its just not reality. I DO like nice guys, I just don't like guys whose niceness comes at the expense of thier masculinity. So there.
As a nice guy, with traditional values who believes in romance, let me tell you what I've learned.
When you meet a woman, most times she responds (romantically) best to ignoring the fact that I (the male) want to sleep with her. Now, whether you have to be a dick about it depends on the woman, but ignoring any flirtations is quite often the way to succeed. I don't do this anymore, because it leads to relationships built on stupid interactions instead of respect.
Now that I don't do that anymore? I spend a year or so between girlfriends, because most women who are attracted to nice guys are WITH nice guys. Women who like nice guys and can recognize them often end up married early, and live happy, productive lives in good relationships.
So once you're in your twenties, most single girls either aren't attracted to nice guys, don't want nice guys, or don't know nice guys from douches who flatter them.
hmmm.... I find it entertaining that people always talk about how it's always the a-hole who gets the girl & never the nice guy. I agree with ....'s " Lots of women do date dbags, but those are actually the submissive type. Lots of women date nice guys, but hate tramping all over them. So most stay single."
I actually tend to stay single because jerks disgust me, and I am always worried about taking advantage of guys who are too nice (read: pushovers)
I think it's more that woman are attracted by confidence. This is why many women go out with jerks and a-holes, they project confidence even if it is only a form of insecure arrogance or narcissism. And then there is the problem of many men mistakenly considering themselves to be nice guys when in fact they are pushovers. Pushovers are always a problem because you can never tell if they are actually happy or if they are just doing something (everything) because they think it will make you happy... instead of the normal give and take of a relationship where both parties compromise to do things that they both like etc.
What women want is a man that can hold his own with her, an equal or better to her that she can look up to and respect. Just because you are nice to someone - guy or gal - does not mean you will get to first base with the one you want, not easily anyway... There has to be something appealing about the man for her to pick him - looks, status, confidence, popularity, power, humor, tenacity, generosity, money, age, occupation, etc. to the particular woman. To get her to care about him, he has to be initially nice to her. If she likes him back and next he decides to be a jerk to her, and she sticks around to find out why - it's only because she is trying to figure out what happened... why bother making her care so she finds out you are a jerk??
Phew, thank you for that... I agree with you that unfortunately very often Prince Charming turns into a toad..... it's supposed to be the other way around!!
Nice guys have trouble getting dates because women have difficulty being attracted to men who fear them. Women are attracted to confidence.
Also many 'nice guys" aren't that nice. Some of them just claim to be nice but really reek of desperation, and complain lots. That's my take.
I completely agree!! "Illusionary correlation" was the first thing that popped in my head, but still being in high school with one semester of psychology, I doubted myself in mentioning it.
Many guys who claim to be "nice" actually lack things like confidence, the ability to keep things interesting, or a separate social life. They then attribute their lack of a girlfriend to "being nice". The guy may be nice, especially as those characteristics DO tend to be correlated, but they are linking the WRONG characteristic with their being dateless. A woman will not forgo a man because he is nice, not even close; however, she will forgo him if he lacks confidence, spice, the ability to stick up for himself, etc....you get it.
I've always thought the "girls only like jerks" is the male version of "guys only like sluts." It's the jealousy and insecurities talking and manifesting by blaming lack of luck on the girl's character.
Guys are just trying to make themselves feel better about getting rejected. It's killing two birds with one stone for them, complimenting themselves by recognizing their kindness while simultaneously insulting the girl by implying that she has bad taste(which can double-back as another compliment to the rejected guy. "She didn't want me because she has bad taste.")
I mean, not to say we should completely condemn all guys who say this. We're all human, we're flawed, and if we need to mutter darkly to ourselves for a few days, that's fine. We deserve small luxuries like that. We just have to eventually admit to ourselves that it's just a coping technique, not a standard we should seriously set people to.
Now THIS is how the question should have been answered...
No, because there is no widely known stereotype of guys only liking sluts. At least, not that I've heard of, and I'm pretty sure I would have. It is ALWAYS woman trampling over nice guys, and friendzoning them.
Good answer btw Panama.
This is possibly the most stupid comment I've seen on this site. "No widely accepted stereotype of guys liking sluts"? What, are you living under a rock?
I dated a very nice guy once. After I broke up with him, he complained to a friend that nice guys never win. That made me very angry. His niceness was the only thing that made me stay with him for as long as I did. I dumped him because he was boring; dates were monotonous and he didn't like doing anything mildly new or adventorous.
Read prettylady's comments. This is a case of improper correlation. We're not friendzoning you because you're nice; we're friendzoning you because you lack confidence, can't keep things mildly interesting, and/or lack a backbone.
I don't like self-conscious guys who rely on me to maintain their self esteem. It doesn't matter how nice they are, if they're only nice to me because my base policy is to respect people until they deserve otherwise, making me slightly more uplifting than the general populous, I'm not interested in dating them.
I'm attracted to guys who can hold their own in a conversation with me. This sometimes results in enjoyable conversations with otherwise selfish, arrogant people, but it also means that they are slightly more likely to take my statements objectively without searching for validation. I wouldn't date these men either, but I would spend more time with them and find them more attractive because they aren't a mommy chore. If anything, they're a willing and competitive opponent. Or adequate flirting practice that I don't feel guilty teasing because they don't give a fuck.
Once every five years or so I've met someone who is both empathetic and secure, a banter-lover and a philosopher. If they also make me warm and jittery, I find out if they're single. If they're single, I do my damnedest to make them mine, but respect their wish if they're not interested. (Ok, I'm not always that mature, but I really do my best, and I leave the petty moping to girlfriend time.)
"Nice" and "douche" are arbitrary and often much less significant than they seem to be. Respect or lack of respect matters more. But the reality is attraction is far from understood. In general I think people should do a better job of minding their own business. So what if she dates a jerk? Unless you're a close friend and she's asking for your advice (or he's abusing her), don't be so quick to judge and instead focus on getting some yourself. If someone rejects you and you are sore over it, tough. It's not their job to keep you happy. Any generalizations you make about that person's gender/race/age to make yourself feel better will only hurt your chances of being cared about in the future.
It's not so much the female ego. It's that we'd like to know WHY when we're rejected. Often the guy won't be upfront with us. The 'you're wonderful but not my kind' excuse only works so often. If I'm so wonderful, why don't you want me? I'd rather be told outright something insensitive, even if it's politically wrong, like 'I'm not into short women' or something.
It's all about confidence, being able to take some teasing/flirting, standing up for yourself and offering suggestions if you want to do something, not waiting on me hand and foot to gain my approval, etc.
It's the desperation that is so unattractive, plus, I don't want a slave; I want an equal. Someone I can respect and who respects me, someone I can have a conversation with. There are plenty of very nice men who are also confident enouh to pull this off.
The problem? There are way too many guys who act like the first example: so desperate for a girlfriend that they will do anything and be anyone just to get her to like them. Like someone said above, I'd rather be (and was for many years) single. I have now met a wonderfully awesome, respectful, nice guy with confidence and self esteem so I can respect him and form a meaningful relationship with him. He is my first bf after dating many, many, many men; and may I just say that he is a wonderful choice. Oh, and jerks and dbags disgust me so badly that I literally walk away in the middle of a conversation with them. I am not interested and their silly games and canned lines seriously annoy me and show their insecurities (the least attractive thing in existence).
Now? All those jerks who tried to date me before can't STAND that I am with my boy now, telling me I'm too good for him, why am I not with them instead, etc. I flat out told them it was because he was nice to me and did not try to treat me like dirt the way these guys do with girls they date.
So I'm sure none of you commenters have ever pined after a dbag while shunning a nice guy that was interested in you?
I don't think any of the answers said that they've never pined for someone they shouldn't have. If that were the case, everyone would marry the first person they date or are interested in.
And I don't even think all of those men who rejected me are d-bags. I totally own that I spent too much time and energy into a guy who isn't into me, whether or not he's aware. And I'll probably make that mistake again but at least I learn more and more things to avoid.
And furthermore, I'd like to add that every time a guy has either mentioned to me, or my friends, "Oh, so you don't like nice guys, should I act like a dick?" (Oh, yes, it has happened) this so-called self-proclaimed, and previously seemingly "Nice Guys" turn out to be the douchebags. Ah, irony. Gotta love it.
Hi, Panama! It's me the asker. First off, thanks for answering my question. I had only submitted that a few hours before you answered it, so I was surprised to see it chosen so fast. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject.
At the same time, your answer left me even more confused now than I was before I asked. Also (and I'm not sure whether I missed the overall message or not) the parts that I did understand I really disagree with. Forgive the novel, but I have a lot to respond to.
You said that we women are typically drawn to men that don't pay us any attention, those that give our egos a challenge. I don't feel like its that simple--as many above say, we're drawn to men who aren't clingy, who have their own lives and don't make us the center of their world. Unfortunately, looking for that means we may see someone who does that to the extremes. And many times when we realize it, the relationship ends sometime after; if it doesn't then its an awful relationship.
"Women assume they can [attract men]" SO far from the truth! I didn't "assume" I could do that until I was about 21, since I was a late bloomer. Even now, I don't assume, but at least I figure I can sometimes. And if that were true, I don't think this site would be as popular as it is, nor would there be numerous guides on how to get the man of your dreams. I'll give you that its super important to us, but I would venture that most women are not that confident in attracting men. When we attract on we like, its more like a reaction of, "Wait, really? Me?!" instead of, "Well of COURSE!"
And WOMEN suck at unrequited love?! There are equally countless numbers of stories in the news of men threatening a woman and his replacement.
Understanding "why" we're rejected, that one is totally true. Sure we'll talk about it with our girlfriends but then we get over it at some point; so what if I suck mildly at unrequited love? And so what if I want to feel special? I'll own that. But don't we all? Isn't a major message from this site and all the advice about love out there about not settling?
All in all, it bothers me that you said a woman's ego is the main reason that men choose to follow this philosophy.
It seems like the blame on us and our childish need to have an ego stroked; it could have at least partly been a man's desire to protect HIS ego by having countless women who he treats badly fawn and obsess over him instead of a few quality ones who have a genuine interest.
Anyway, I know it's long but I hope you see this. It'd be interesting to exchange thoughts. Thanks!
You know....i actually didn't expect this response to generate so much vitriol. mostly b/c there are entire canons of literature devoted to this very concept.
now, i will say that it isn't the whole story, and perhaps i could have said as much. clearly...i was speaking on the ideology behind it. and why i believe it to be true. i wasn't saying that this how these men actually are as people just the thought behind why many men believe being a dbag is a way to attract women. we witness, a lot of times, the very men who do exhibit this behavior being the men that women do in fact seek. "nice guys" so to speak tend to be the shoulders that get leaned on while the women are seeking the guy that just won't commit.
part of the reason for the popularity of this site and the myriad books etc about relationships is b/c, and i firmly believe this, many women just dont want to accept the truth about some of this stuff. guys that obviously suck get a lot of attention.
now....and let's be very clear here....there are a lot of nice guys who are married and make great husbands partners etc. and thats how it should be. everybody grows up at some point, men and women alike. guys who are dbags aren't generally even looking for wives, they're looking to score and given their goals in that regard, it tends to work. but those same guys do realize, hopefully, that in order to get a wife, and not just a vessel for children, that they will have to be nicer to women in order to actually secure a quality woman.
regarding women thinking they can attract men...i do believe that to be true. maybe not en masse. but its part of the reason why women (in my very humble opinion) don't take rejection well. but let me be more clear, i'm not saying that women can snag any men they want, but when a woman makes it clear she has an interest, rejection is just a foreign concept. i think women deal with far less rejection STRICTLY in the confines of approaching a man. sure, women catch way more losses in terms of their heart, and feelings, etc. but if a woman was just attempting to exchange sexual favors, i think she'd have a leg up and rejection would suck.
further, i wasn't answering this question from the framework of seeking out and securing long term love and affection. like i said, anytime "game" comes into play (and believe me, being a dbag is a game tactic) it isn't bc a dude is looking for a wife. so i didnt think hat's the angle we were speaking from. if you ask me if i think a dbag can get a quality woman for a long term relationship...then no. not without making severe changes in his dealings with women.
ego is real. and women's egos are at the core of why men think they can do things like this and it be successful. that's not sexist or wrong. it also doesnt mean that i think its right for it to be the case. but i've seen it work. ive done it. there are books, tv shows, and lifestyles devoted to this. but they're also not intended for relationships either.
also, i never said that men don't have egos or get caught up in unrequited love. i've been there. just b/c i dont say it doesnt mean that i dont think its possible or exists. c'monson. we're all grown here.
generalizations and blanket statements, stereotypes, and prejudices are the way that you break down all of the situations and issues. if i wanted to be anal and deal with every significant circumstance then i could, but i cant and i wont. a fairly general question was asked so i answered it.
you asked me to englighten you on this school of thought. i did. maybe im wrong. maybe im not. but we've all been privy to circumstances where it worked. so at the very least its a testable theory. if you disagree with my synopsis, cool. but you asked. i answered. and i know you didnt come at me in such a negative fashion but apparently i'm soooooo crazy offbase that i'm bothering people.
is the male ego part of the culprit...sure. but we already KNOW that. you said he's being a dbag. lol. duh. so me pointing out the female ego as a culprit as well shouldn't be such a point of contention. if you wanted me to be the dude who just says these guys are immature and all women are victims of this, then i'm not the one.
either way...maybe that cleared some stuff up...maybe it didnt. hi-fives and pimpslaps.
I'd prefer to just play with the hand life dealt me. A little douchey, but very kind. At least I'd like to think so.
There is definite intrigue in guy who doesn't fawn over you. However, fawning is NOT equivalent to niceness. I love "the chase", but there's only so far I'll go before moving on. Also, if he's a total jerk or douche about it, it's an instant turnoff. End of story.
At the same time, a sugary sweet guy is a turnoff, too. I like a guy who can shock me with acidic comments but is gentlemanly and kind inside.
Also, this is me speaking for myself. I'm a little emotionally reserved and very prideful. However, this is not a "woman" thing- it's a me thing.
Hi! Cool post! But this site is still loading slowly.
Old post but still, I thought I'd put my 2 cents in:
I see it as math, but not the kind put forth here.
Given that it is sometimes difficult to tell who is a jerk and who is not, jerks will get more women for the same reason they'll never apologize for doing something wrong: they don't care.
Nice guys care. Nice guys contemplate committed, longterm relationship potential from women. Nice guys see women as individual people, and so take more time to decide whether they like them and are more selective. If a relationship falls apart, chances are he will take time to heal before moving on. Therefore, one nice guy can usually only be with 1 woman over the course of many years.
Jerks don't care. They're not selective, they don't care who the woman is as a person, just that she's available to him. And he will be comfortable seeing multiple women, either at the same time or close in time after one another. Most relationships are unstable at best, so no woman really sticks around very long, and he's on to the next woman instantly. Therefore, one jerk can date a dozen women in half the time of the nice guy.
It's often difficult to identify a jerk right off the bat. Some things are obvious in retrospect, but at the beginning, people are on their best behavior and jerks resemble nice guys unless you know their dating history. So it would be weird to conclude that women are actually attracted more to jerks.