Did they also not ban the turban? Because if they didn't ban the turban, well, hell should be raised!

I haven't read the news about it, but maybe, France is doing this for safety reasons? It's like getting your California ID and because you're wearing a hat or a burqa or a turban, DMV will say an immediate "No." They're not targeting the religion but in a time when one slip can cause another 9/11, all measures should be taken especially because we'll never know when a horrific attack will happen (For all the airport security nuisance, I'm still grateful I'll be flying safe; that sort of thing). Besides, the burqa is now seen as a form of oppression and potential element in terrorism (as far fetched as this may sound!) rather than a symbol of faith and beliefs (sadly!).

But yes, I also understand why we can't just impose on women what they should or should not wear. I wonder if I just wanted to wear a cloth similar to a burqa in France... Hmmm.

Being half French and living in France at the moment I feel as though I have to give my opinion. I also grew up in the UK, where I honesty believe people should do what they want when they want. That said, for me I have grown to prefer the ban on wearing the Burka. Why? The difference between a nun and a woman wearing a burka? The fact that they CAN show their face, even hair... and that to become a nun is a 7 year choice. It is not something you take lightly. Nor is it something that you are born into. I'm not saying that being born into the Islam faith is 'indoctrination" (neither is any faith) but it does start the building blocks to find... say hiding your whole body ''normal''. But is isn't normal to hide everything. There's a difference between not dressing like a "whore about town" than literally giving you no shapes. These women, are no longer women, they have been taken away everything that tells us they are. REAL freedom is not only a personal choice, but a conscience choice to make for a community, or a gender. Here... they are not really making a choice. One day it's the Burka... another day you can't leave your house. If anyone here has read the Coran, I applaud you, but for the majority who haven't... it does NOT say to cover you body entirely, but suggests that a woman dresses "modestly". I dress modestly. I usually cover my arms, I don't wear mini skirts... and yet I am not wearing a Burka... why? Because I am still a woman. I am free. These woman aren't free. They are following an human "interpretation" of a "divine" book. Who are we to interpret and tell people? I'm no major feminist, but I believe that this is just a man's interpretation of a divine book. The subjugation of women a a tale that hasn't finish being told, but what is important is the choices we make. I'm all for covering you hair, sure... covering your body... sure... but your face, your face is who you are. Who you represent. Without a face, you are a no one. That is why the Burka is wrong. Without a face, you have no personality, no identity.

Where I don't like the idea of actually having to ban something, maybe in the long run, women will get their social identities back. Showing your face isn't corrupting people.

To be frank there isn't a universal definition for normal, ergo your definition of "normal" might be viewed differently by another person. Also I believe the example MM used of the nuns and the burqa wasn't to compare the two of them but to merely state; why one can have the peace to practice her religion and the other is labeled oppressed. I'm sure that those women who wear the burqa had a choice otherwise they wouldn't protest however celebrate and thank the French gov for the riddance of it, so it is not something they take lightly too.

I'm sure their last concern is showing their body shape, people who follow a faith usually don't have the earthly concerns some of us have, end of. Don't you see yourself a wee bit judgemental by not defining them as women? Almost reminds me of when the blacks weren't perceived as humans.

rxy, for some reason you are not trying to understand them but rather point finger and judge them, which I think is sad, hatred comes from ignorance. So if you went to them and had a talk why they are wearing it maybe you would understand their point of view. No one is denying you of your freedom, why are you in the way of theirs? Whether they are following a man's interpretation or not, besides isn't most religions like that?

I've got couple of Muslim friends, some of them wear the burqa and some don't and after having an interesting conversation with them I found out that their religion gives them choices of how they can worship their God. As matter of fact one of them told me an interesting quote from the Quran which says; God does not burden the soul with more than it can cope with. Hence why some wear the burqa and some don't. I believe personally people have the right to worship/dress anyway they like, if a woman decides she can sacrifice her fashion dress sense for her God, what is our problem. For crying out loud we live in the 21 century, I thought we left behind us the religious prosecution in the middle ages!

However my personal philosophy is if you got it, flaunt it. That's why I would never consider the burqa but that Is my personal view which I have no right of enforcing on others!

Another thing to keep in mind on this issue, is how france treats religion on the whole. Here in the US we don't allow people to make religious observances part of public institutions (no mandated prayer in school for instance) but mostly we leave religion alone. In some countries however, (and I always hear france mentioned as the biggest offender) they seem to actively discourage displays of religion in public. For instance a few years post nine eleven I read an article about how other countries were dealing with their muslim populations lately, and there was a section where they talked about how in france many observant muslim children actually go to catholic schools, because in the public schools they weren't allowed to wear their traditional clothing, not even those tasteful head-cloths that just cover their hair. Apparently students in french public schools aren't allowed to wear anything that advertises their religion. I think in this context banning the burqa could be seen as oppressing a religious group, since it's part of a larger pattern.

Personally, I wouldn't support this in america either. I may not like the burqa and the attitudes about women that it represents, but if we decide people are allowed to dress and act however they want (as long as they aren't hurting anyone) then we need to stand by that, even when people make choices that we don't like.

I feel it is the French government who are oppressing these women's freedom. It is their choice to wear the Burka and by taking that away from them, they are not allowed to be who they want to be.

And I disagree whole-heartedly with rxy...for one thing, who is to say what normal is? Your normal sounds very different from my normal. I have several points I could make about your lack of understanding about Islam, but I don't have all day. I will just say though that the point of not showing your face and wearing a burka is to preserve your identity...not take it away! It takes a lot of courage to wear a burka, and one has to have real confidence and faith in who they are and what they believe in to be able to do it!!

It really annoys me how judgemental ignorant people are.

As a muslim living in Britain, I thank heavens that I have not had my rights taken away from me in such a way! (And for the record, I do not wear the burka...but at least I have the choice and option of doing so if I should so wish!!!)

Why can't people just live and let live?!

I like your answer here, however, the burqa CAN be vey problematic, for much more practical reasons than you'd might expect.
Where I live, you cannot enter a bank without you face being visible, even wearing a motorcykle helmet on TOP of your head, not covering anything, is a big no-no. Why then, are these women allowed to walk in wearing a burqa? They could easily not be women at all. How are the bankers supposed to know they are who the passport says they are, when they can't see them?
The same goes for our monthly buss passes, a picture of a lot of cloth and a pair of hardly visible eyes? Could be anyone of the 20 or so ladies that wear burqa in the neighbourhood.
I don't much mind them wearing it, but %#¤¤"&&)= it should not be okay to use it as an excuse to not follow the same rules as everyone else!

Dansukker; your opinion is that we should all conform to society and not have the right to practice our individual way of life (regardless of what it is). Heck let's all dress the same and talk the same and if anyone steps out of boundaries they are fishing for an excuse for individualism! Right?

The ladies who wear burqa actually accommodate with the security issues, they have no problem in showing their face then. I should know because I've come across them in my line of work. If someone walked into a bank with a motorcycle helmet I would be suspicion, mainly because I haven't come across a religion that has in its doctrine to wear a motorcycle helmet.

Come on people let's be more openminded here and try to understand before acting like kids.

lol...Religious people are so ridiculous.

At the weekend I walked around Knightsbridge in London and I noticed there were floods of women veiled in blackness. It didn't shock me, but it took me a moment to realise that yes I was in London, and No I wasn't in some sort of religious gathering. The same thing happened today when I was waiting to drop my bags at Heathrow Airport. Religion aside, the appearance of a big black floating object with two eyes peeking out gives off a sinister vibe. For some inexplicable reasoning and maybe because it reminds me of the 'Scream' costume or a man in a balaclava- It feels threatening and quite frankly it freaks me out. As someone who was raised in a terrorist country, divided by religion, I think Religion should be personal, private and kept behind the doors of your own home.I have seen - heartbreakingly and first hand - what differing and sometimes radicial religious beliefs and customs will do to friends, families and communities.Your beliefs might not be in taste with someone elses, so why bring it into the schoolground? The workplace?. In my experience this does more harm than good. In some ways I can see that it was wrong for Sarkozy to ban the burka, as a womans choice to veil herself is ultimately her choice and her choice alone. But sometimes that choice affects others around her. Someone who is literally masking themselves - whether it is a veil or a clown mask or a balaclava - it is masking the face - and in what modern world is that socially acceptable and correct. Seeing someones face is important - in so many ways. I can too though, see the other side of the coin- if you want to live in France and be a French citizen, leave your culture at the door or go home. I find it disrespectful to move to a country and not try to align yourself with the local culture and traditions.

Personally, I don't want to see it.

I applaud the French government for taking a stand for women's rights. The burqa is a sign of oppression not religion. As stated by a person above the Koran does not require the women to cover anything.

I lived in Saudi Arabia for three years and I saw first hand how the women are treated in an Islamic country. The women are required to cover up completely.The burqa and coverning the rest of the body is not a choice. It is required and can cause problems for those who oppose it. As a westerner I was required to dress showing no skin. I did not have to cover my head though but I did get stared at a lot and wore it to be left a lone.

When we went to the Red Sea to go swimming the women were in the water fully dressed with burqa and all. The women were segregated from the men and did not have equal rights. Women are like property. They do not have the right to own property and the are not allowed to drive.

When we would fly out of Saudi Arabia, as soon as we got on the bus to go to the plane, all the women pulled their burqa's off. Why? Because they were leaving the country and were going to anothe place it was not required.

Unfortunately the oppression of middle eastern women and islam are collapsed in large part and the women are programmed at a young age what is appropriate or not. As with any religion. Hence the women believe that wearing the burqa is the "right" thing to do. But symbolically it IS a symbol of oppression.

As I said, hurray for France for standing up for women's rights!!!!

I'm not completely in favour of the burka ban, but I do understand where it's coming from. I live in Quebec, and recently we've had to deal with a lot of crap concerning 'reasonable accomodations' - ie. accomodating people of various religions. And sometimes it just goes too far. I mean, we claim to be a non-religious province, although the dominant religion is Christianity. We basically fought a long time to not allow any public religious symbols- for example, during Christmas time there are no longer signs in stores/cities/schools etc that say 'Merry Christmas', schools cannot put up Christmas trees, and in everyday life, if you work with the public in pretty much any way (especially in schools or any government-owned service), you can't wear anything with religious connotation, for example a necklace with a cross. These are all LITTLE things (I mean, a necklace? Come on.), representing the DOMINANT religion in the province, and they're banned. Yet people of other religions can cover up their whole body, hair and face or walk around with knives in their pockets and we're too coward to tell them not to, because we don't want to appear close-minded. So we accomodate. And it's not just about the burka/wearing religious symbols. Last year there was a mini-scandal when a religious man (I forget what religion) refused to be talked to/told what to do by a woman police-officer, solely because his religious views led him to believe that women can't give orders to men, and demanded to talk to a man instead. We obliged. It's just things like that, that snowball into bigger controversies and before we know it we're putting our own values aside just to accomodate others.

I don't mean to sound close-minded, but honestly, if you're not happy with the laws of where you're living, then move. I live in a country where women have the same freedom as men, after many, many years of fighting for it, and a province that's VERY non-religious, and so I expect anyone who moves here to respect that.
After all, I wouldn't move to Saudi Arabia and go running around in a mini-skirt. Mostly because I'd be killed.

I read an article a while back written by an Islamic woman in favor of the burqa. To her, it was a shield against becoming a sexual object. There's two sides to every story.

It is completely unfeminist to force the burqa or ban the burqa. It is feminist to allow women to choose how they want to dress.

The political actions of an oppressive country are not the same as the religious choices of a person. If a woman is forced to wear a burqa, it's oppression. If a woman is not permitted to wear a burqa, it's also oppressive. Some women view them as an unwanted requirement, some view them as a sign of devotion to God and a way to be sure they are judged by their actions and not their appearances.

Regardless of whether or not one is particularly fond of Islam, one should respect the choices of Muslim women, as long as they are HER choices.

I think you missed MM's great line:

"No one shouts at nuns, or Mormons, or the Amish for how they dress. Why not?"

So the Muslim women are automatically oppressed and the nuns aren't? Of course. Nuns are seen as pious and devoted to their religion. We are too caught up in symbolism crap. It is ignorant to suggest that by wearing burqa, you are supporting driving bans and the lack of property rights and other injustices, just because they happen to coexist in Saudi Arabia.

Oppression in western countries such as France is very low, save a few rare cases. France banning the burqa is not going to change ANYTHING in the Middle East. Let's have a call for uplifting oppressive bans, not imposing "counter-bans".

Women in Middle Eastern countries are many times oppressed, no doubt. But this is somewhat of a propagandist generalization: many women do it out of their OWN beliefs. I understand how hard it is to believe that people might not think EXACTLY the same way you do. (I don't cover at all. I have many Muslim friends here who wear hijabs and none of them were forced. Some of them were even discouraged by their parents to cover. In early high school, I had a hard time accepting this because *I* didn't want to cover and couldn't imagine people thinking otherwise. People don't think exactly the same! How odd.)

Believe it or not, some women see feminism as covering themselves- and they have the right to NOT expose themselves if they don't want to. Standing up for women's rights my ass! Need I emphasize the importance of choice? What we need is not the insensitive banning of a woman's right to be covered, but dropping the requirement that she must be.

"When we lose the right to be different, we lose the privilege to be free." - Charles Evans Hughes. I came across this quote when helping my friend with her paper back in high school, and something about this quote stuck with me - i've had it on a sticky note on my mirror ever since. When we restrict others rights to be different, we rob them of freedom of choice. Point is, whether or not WE view the burqa as restrictive and oppressive or as a way to remain modest, WE should not be able to make that choice for others, they should.

"When we lose the right to be different, we lose the privilege to be free." - Charles Evans Hughes. I came across this quote when helping my friend with her paper back in high school, and something about this quote stuck with me - i've had it on a sticky note on my mirror ever since. When we restrict others rights to be different, we rob them of freedom of choice. Point is, whether or not WE view the burqa as restrictive and oppressive or as a way to remain modest, WE should not be able to make that choice for others, they should.

Where I live we have several laws that discriminate against dress code vs security (eg: no head/facial coverings in banks, govt buildings and licensed premises, and certainly not in courts). Funnily enough, though, a number of local, younger women of Muslim heritage voluntarily choose to wear burqas and the niqab in public as a sign of cultural pride, even though their parents or family have no such expectations of them.
Mind you, that being said, burqas aren't very common in Australia - too bloody hot for a start - and no one has raised any 'religious persecution' appeals to the courts about it.
From what I've read of the France ban, the 'reasoning' is two-fold:
1. as a security requirement (refusal to reveal your face to the gendarmerie = a finable offence), and;
2. as a means to punish those who force a woman to hide her face "through threats, violence, constraint, abuse of authority or power for reason of their gender." Anyone found coercing a woman to cover her face can earn a huge fine and/or jail time.
Great way of fighting issues of gender inequality on one level, but also a handy way for a right-wing focused govt to visibly target one (sizeable) minority within their own domain.